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p. 281 “Mary asked…keep his spirits up.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:38:49–23:40:45:
A. I was working at a warehouse, and I got my cousin in. She knew somebody else that wanted to work. We talked to the owner, so it was Mary Conejo who came and applied and worked there with us. I can't remember how long it was down the road that she had asked me to write to Carlos DeLuna, her brother-in-law. I told her I would, yes, I didn't have a problem with it. Because he was in prison, on Death Row, at the time. I know the DeLunas through Mary Conejo, because I worked with her. Every once in a while I stopped by the house and some of her relatives would be there and I would meet them. Q. Who is Mary Conejo married to? A. Mary Conejo is married to Danny Conejo, which is Carlos DeLuna's [half] brother. Q. And what other members of the siblings did you get to know at the time? A. I got to know Manuel, his brother, which I had a relationship with. I knew more of his family through Manuel. I knew [Carlos's half-sister] Ton[i]. I was introduced to [half-sister] Vicki. Rose, I had already known through the writings with Carlos.
Peso Chavez's Notes on Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row (Aug. 18, 2004) at 1 ("In the . . . 80's Ms. Esquivel worked with Mary Conejo, Carlos DeLuna's sister-in-law and was aware that Carlos was on death row. She became a pen pal and the letter writing began. Over the years hundreds of letters were written—two years ago Ms. Esquivel discarded them").p. 281 “Although Rosie…problem with that.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:38:49–23:40:45.p. 281 “Over the next…letters back from him.”See Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:32:57–23:33:20 ("I had a box, I'd say about this wide, like this, and about this tall. And they were filled with letters from him. As far as measurements, I really can't tell you how big a box it was. Q. What happened to that box? A. I finally got rid of it, all the letters. I'm not sure if it was because I was mad at his [Carlos's] brother [Manuel DeLuna]. I probably decided it was time to move on."); Peso Chavez's Notes on Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna (Aug. 18, 2004) at 1.p. 281 “She saved…Garland in 2004.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005), at 23:32:57–23:33:20; Peso Chavez's Notes on Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna (Aug. 18, 2004) at 1.p. 281 “Rosie also…attention on the outside.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:32:24–23:32:34, 23:38:17–23:39:00 ("I believe I may have visited him [on death row] about three or four times"; "He was well-mannered. He was really nice. I know you hear that [they are] all nice guys. They are really not nice. Carlos, he was. He was a gentleman. I don't think he could have done it.").p. 281 “Even so…Did he kill the girl?”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:41:58–23:43:15 ("When I asked him if he did kill . . . I asked Carlos DeLuna if he did kill the girl, and . . . he said no."); Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:39:00–23:40:25:Q. [Asking Esquivel to confirm a statement in notes an investigator made during an earlier interview, which the investigator read to her:] "In the early 1980s, Ms. Esquivel worked with Mary Conejo, Carlos DeLuna's sister-in-law, and was aware that Carlos was on Death Row. She became a pen pal, and the letter writing began. Over the years, hundreds of letters were written. Some years ago, Ms. Esquivel discarded them. Between the letter writing and several personal visits, Ms. Equivel was of the opinion that Carlos DeLuna did not kill the person he was convicted of. She bases this opinion on a number of factors, including statements Carlos made to her. She stated"—and this is a quotation —"'Carlos never liked talking about what had happened. He would rather look to the future. But he told me on numerous occasions that he did not kill the woman, and that it was another Carlos, I think Hernandez. He said he was not involved in any way. When he told me this, I believed him. It was the way he looked at me when he told me. He sounded sincere and truthful. The only other thing he told me was that he ran when he saw the cops and they found him hiding under a car.'" Is that an accurate statement of yours? A. Yes.
p. 281 “‘Carlos never…future,’ Rosie remembered.”See supra note 6.p. 281 “But when…I think Hernandez.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:39:00–23:40:25.p. 281 “‘ I know’… emphasizing the ‘not.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:38:17–23:39:00 ("I believed him [Carlos DeLuna] when he told me he didn't do it. He sounded sincere and he was sincere about it. He wasn't the type that would. He was well-mannered. He was really nice. I know you hear that [they are] all nice guys. They are really not nice. Carlos, he was. He was a gentleman. I don't think he could have done it.").p. 281 “She’d had her…comparison based on experience…”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:30:03–23:30:45, 23:33:20–23:33:51 (describing her relationship with Manuel and her anger at him when they broke up); see Peso Chavez's Notes on Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna (Aug. 18, 2004) at 1 ("Ms. Esquivel lives at the above address with her mother and father and her only child Bridgette (11) whose father is Manuel DeLuna. Bridget has never met her father in person and has only communicated with him by phone or through letters.").p. 281 “…‘Carlos was… could have done it.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:38:17–23:39:00 ("I believed him [Carlos DeLuna] when he told me he didn't do it. He sounded sincere and he was sincere about it. He wasn't the type that would. He was well-mannered. He was really nice. I know you hear that [they are] all nice guys. They are really not nice. Carlos, he was. He was a gentleman. I don't think he could have done it.").p. 282 “Rosie tried…‘the way to the end.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:45:40–23:50:34:A. [Carlos DeLuna] fought up until his death. Like I said, they didn't listen to him. He gave enough information, he thought, Carlos DeLuna thought, but it just wasn't there, it wasn't there for him. Q. Reflecting back on it if you would, Rosie, if you would. Just ask and answer for yourself, why is it that Carlos DeLuna couldn't get the help he needed or get the facts out, the truth out. Why was it, in your view, that he was executed? What happened, what broke down or didn't work? A. It's hard to say what happened. There's a lot of things that happened in this case. Maybe money, maybe not enough money. Maybe people just didn't want to listen to someone, to a youthful troublemaker that was in a wrong place at the wrong time and felt like he did it. Not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's just another troublemaker out of the way. They didn't want to listen to him at all. But he fought, Carlos fought all the way to the end. He maintained his innocence all the way to the end. Most killers don't. . . . But Carlos wasn't sorry for anything that he's done. Because he didn't do it. He didn't believe he did it. He believed he did not do it. And I believe he didn't do it. I believe that this other Carlos Hernandez did. And they just didn't want to listen to him. He said it numerous times. I don't know if he was telling the right people, or his lawyers didn't do what they could for him. I don't know. He really didn't mention . . . He did mention that his lawyers were doing this hab— Q. Habeas corpus. A. Habeas corpus. I don't know what that is. But that he was doing that, his lawyers, Carlos DeLuna's lawyers were doing that. And I know that he did tell me, "They just don't want to listen. I tell them this. I give them all the information. They just don't want to listen." Q. What did he tell them? A. He gave up the name. He gave up the fact that Carlos Hernandez was the one that went into the store. He had nothing to do with this crime. He only ran because he, you know, he just got out of prison. He was on probation. He didn't want anything to happen to him.
p. 282 “He told her…about his innocence.”See supra note 12.p. 282 “Carlos told her…about Carlos Hernandez.”See supra note 12.p. 282-3 “‘I tell…don’t want to listen.’”See supra note 12.p. 283 “‘He fought…them it was someone else.’”Peso Chavez's Notes on Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna (Aug. 18, 2004) at 2 ("She summed up the interview by saying, 'He fought the way he could fight. Sometimes he just wanted to give up. They just would not listen to him when he told them it was someone else.'").p. 283 “Rosie knew…‘stay of his execution.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:36:35–23:37:45:I was surprised [to learn about Carlos DeLuna's December 7, 1989 execution date]. I knew that his last appeal, he had told me it didn't work out for him. I got the call from Rose [Rhoton]. I didn't know the actual date that he was going to get executed. But when I got a phone call from Rose, she told me that Carlos was up for execution that night. They were hoping for a stay of his execution. He said he didn't want to call me, he didn't want to talk to me or anything like that, because he was afraid. When I talked to Rose that night, I think I prayed. I prayed for him, up until I guess I heard that he had been executed. I was sad. I didn't think it would happen.
p. 283 “Carlos ‘was afraid,’ his sister had said. Rosie prayed for him.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rosie Esquivel, Girlfriend of Carlos DeLuna While He Was on Death Row, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 23:36:35–23:37:45.p. 283 “He said he was prepared to die…”Letter from Carlos DeLuna to Vicky Gutierrez, Half-Sister of Carlos DeLuna (June 30, 1988):I am sure you heard the federal court in corpus Christi rule against me on my appeal that means I well be going back so they can set another date of execution. I have a good chance of being put to death this time around because its getting to a point where the courts just don't want to hear our appeals any more on Death row. . . . I sometimes sit here at nights and I cry to myself and I wonder how could I have ever let some stupid thing like this happen because of a friend who did it and I kept my mouth shut about it all. But I don't blame any one but my self and I accept that, that is why I well accept If the state of Texas decides to execute me. I want you to rember that no matter what happen I will never forget All of you'll and I will always love all of you'll. They might be able to kill me but they can't kill love or memories. always keep that In mind.
See also Transcribed Videotape Interview with Vicky Gutierrez, Half-Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Garland, Texas (Feb. 27, 2005) at 01:01:50–01:11:04 (quoting Carlos DeLuna's June 30, 1988 letter); supra Chapter 15, note 204 and accompanying text.p. 283 “…and that if…‘don’t worry, I’m okay.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 20:47:20–20:50:10:Q. What is your judgment about your brother's [religious] convictions at the end of his life? A. Carlos, not just because he was in jail, because he started saying, "I got saved, I believe in God," and this and this and that. At the end, Carlos was peaceful. He was very peaceful at the end. He knew that he was forgiven. He knew that. Q. Do you think he also knew that, although he had done bad things, he'd put his family through a lot? A. Oh, yeah. He even told me, "I want you to know that I'm so sorry for all the things that I did to cause all this agony, all this hurt. And to see you here, visiting me in prison, in Death Row. All this shame." "[Indicating Rose's response to Carlos's statements:] Don't worry about it. It's no big deal. I love you. I know you didn't commit this crime." At the end, Carlos was very— He said, "Whatever happens, happens. But I did not commit this crime. I want you to know that." I told him, "Oh, I know that." I just did not know how to help him. I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. And he said, "I'm ok with it. I'm ok, it's ok, I'm ok. Should I be executed, it's ok, don't worry, I'm ok. Maybe this is the way it's going to be for all the things that I did in the past. Maybe this is just my destiny." Q. You say he was peaceful at the end. I'm struck by that because Reverend Pickett said he was peaceful. A. Very peaceful. Q. Reverend Pickett thought that maybe his sense of what he had done wrong, but also what he had not done wrong, may have contributed to that peacefulness. That he knew where he stood, even if the state of Texas or everybody else did not. How do you feel about that? A. I believe Carlos, in his heart, accepted that he was going to be executed. That it was going to be ok, because of all the hurt that he caused, all the hurt that he did—not on this crime that he was convicted for—but all the other things that he did, would even things out. I believe that he thought that, in his mind. And he was very peaceful about it. What hurt him the most was having me watch him, for me to be on the other side, seeing him going through this and being executed. He knew it was going to devastate me. He knew that. And I believe that I know, in his heart, that that's what bothered him the most, is to watch the ones that cared for him go through so much pain.
p. 283 “Someone else…Boudrie described his thinking.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Karen Boudrie-Evers, Corpus Christi Television Reporter, in Dallas, Texas (Feb. 28, 2005) at 03:25:12–03:26:03 (paraphrasing Carlos DeLuna's statements in a letter Boudrie received from Carlos DeLuna shortly after his execution: "I, at times, wonder if we, as humans, do really have any control with our own destiny. I don't think so. I believe the cards are already laid out on the table and all we do is play along."); see also Kathy Fair, Murderer DeLuna is Put to Death, Hous. Chron., Dec. 7, 1989 at 33A ("A self-described black sheep who believed his death sentence was part of some pre-ordained blueprint today became the fourth person executed in Texas this year.").p. 283 “‘Whatever happens, happens,’ he told his sister Rose.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 20:47:20–20:50:10:Q. What is your judgment about your brother's [religious] convictions at the end of his life? A. Carlos, not just because he was in jail, because he started saying, "I got saved, I believe in God," and this and this and that. At the end, Carlos was peaceful. He was very peaceful at the end. He knew that he was forgiven. He knew that. Q. Do you think he also knew that, although he had done bad things, he'd put his family through a lot? A. Oh, yeah. He even told me, "I want you to know that I'm so sorry for all the things that I did to cause all this agony, all this hurt. And to see you here, visiting me in prison, in Death Row. All this shame." "[Indicating Rose's response to Carlos's statements:] Don't worry about it. It's no big deal. I love you. I know you didn't commit this crime." At the end, Carlos was very— He said, "Whatever happens, happens. But I did not commit this crime. I want you to know that." I told him, "Oh, I know that." I just did not know how to help him. I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. And he said, "I'm ok with it. I'm ok, it's ok, I'm ok. Should I be executed, it's ok, don't worry, I'm ok. Maybe this is the way it's going to be for all the things that I did in the past. Maybe this is just my destiny." Q. You say he was peaceful at the end. I'm struck by that because Reverend Pickett said he was peaceful. A. Very peaceful. Q. Reverend Pickett thought that maybe his sense of what he had done wrong, but also what he had not done wrong, may have contributed to that peacefulness. That he knew where he stood, even if the state of Texas or everybody else did not. How do you feel about that? A. I believe Carlos, in his heart, accepted that he was going to be executed. That it was going to be ok, because of all the hurt that he caused, all the hurt that he did—not on this crime that he was convicted for—but all the other things that he did, would even things out. I believe that he thought that, in his mind. And he was very peaceful about it. What hurt him the most was having me watch him, for me to be on the other side, seeing him going through this and being executed. He knew it was going to devastate me. He knew that. And I believe that I know, in his heart, that that's what bothered him the most, is to watch the ones that cared for him go through so much pain.
p. 283 “‘But I did…you to know that.’”See supra note 22.p. 283 “Other times…death row to see him.”See, e.g., Letter from Carlos DeLuna to Vicky Gutierrez, Half-Sister of Carlos DeLuna, (June 30, 1988) at 3 ("I sometimes sit here at night and I cry to myself and I wonder how could I have ever let some stupid thing like this happen because of a friend who did it and I kept my mouth shut about it all."); see Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 20:47:20–20:50:10.p. 283 “‘I don’t blame… decides to execute me.’”Letter from Carlos DeLuna to Vicky Gutierrez, Half-Sister of Carlos DeLuna, (June 30, 1988) at 3.p. 283 “‘[I]n his heart…would even things out.’”See Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 20:47:20–20:50:10.p. 283 “Rose believed…‘by her and by God.’”See Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 20:47:20–20:50:10.p. 283 “There was one…feel that way.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:21:30–21:26:27:Q. There was a letter that was written. Carlos wrote a letter at the very, very end of his hours, he wrote a letter . . . . Would you tell us about that letter? What the contents were and what became of the letter? A. I wish I would have been able to save that letter. When I opened that letter, Carlos was apologizing for all the hurt that he caused. And I know what he meant by that. He was hurting for us, because he knew that I would be hurting for him. He knew that. And he was just so sorry for all the pain that he caused to his family members, and to his mom, to our mother. He knew that. Q. Did he say anything in that letter that indicated he was guilty of the crime for which he was— A. No. He never stated that on the letter. He just said he was sorry for causing us pain. He was sorry. Q. What happened to that letter? A. When we moved, I had asked my sister, that lives in Garland. I had some boxes, all Carlos's stuff, that was sent back to me. And that was the hardest thing, receiving your brother's things. They sent them in boxes. All his belongings in a box. I placed all those things in a storage box, because I was very hurt. When we moved I asked my sister if we could store some stuff in her garage and she said yes. When I did ask for all the stuff back, which was six, seven years later, all the stuff got destroyed. Which I was very devastated, because Carlos's things were there. All his belongings, his watch that he wore all the time, his books that he read, his Bible, were all destroyed. And all the letters that we corresponded back and forth was all destroyed in that box. Q. Do you know how it got destroyed? A. My sister said it was damage by all the rain, things that her storage got all messed up. Not only did my things get destroyed but her things got destroyed, too.
p. 283 “She lost… forgiveness he said he felt.”See supra note 28.p. 284 “During the first…reporter Kathy Fair…”See supra Chapter 15, notes 287–289 and accompanying text.p. 284 “In a letter…all day Monday.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Karen Boudrie-Evers, Corpus Christi Television Reporter, in Dallas, Texas (Feb. 28, 2005) at 03:21:15–03:34:45:[reading from a letter Carlos DeLuna wrote to Karen Boudrie on December 5, 1989] On December 5th, 1989, he writes, Carlos DeLuna writes, "Dear Karen, I thought I would write you another letter today. I hope you don't get bored with my letters. I usually write a whole lot. Well, today is Tuesday, and I still haven't heard anything [from the court of appeals]. It's 10:32 p. m., and I'm trying to see if they would allow me to make a phone call to call some of my family members. I was just thinking last night, I had set my alarm clock to get up early. That way I could try and talk to some people I needed to talk to. The alarm clock went off, and you know, for the first time since I've been here I never have ever slept right through the alarm. I woke everybody else up in the same tank with me, and my neighbor kept banging on my bars 'till I woke up. I can't believe I am sleeping too good with all this happening. . . . But you know what, Karen? I am not scared like I was yesterday. I feel like this peace came from somewhere and entered my body, and I feel very peacefully about everything."
p. 284 “But Monday night… alarm clock going off.”See supra note 31.p. 284 “‘I woke everybody…all this happening.’”See supra note 31.p. 284 “‘But you know…peacefully about everything.’”See supra note 31.p. 284 “Between 1982…by lethal injection.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:10:44, 21:42:50–21:44:42 (noting that he "watched ninety-five die in the execution chamber"); Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 4 ("Reverend Pickett's grandfather was murdered. His father was a policeman. The Reverend was raised with the idea of 'kill 'em,' and actually did support the death penalty for many years. After ministering at 95 executions, he no longer supports the death penalty, and has become an outspoken advocate against it.").p. 284 “He also ministered…with a stay of execution.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25:In those days we were executing at midnight. They'd bring them in early in the morning. My responsibility, according to the warden, was to be there in the death house, which is in the northeast corner of the unit, which is only about 50 feet from the house where I lived. My responsibility was to be there when he walked in. I was to be the face that he [the condemned prisoner] saw outside the guards . . . . His charge to me was, and these are his words, "to seduce their emotions so they won't fight getting out of the cell or getting up on the table." . . . And all but one of those ninety-five [executed on his watch] talked to me. Of course there were fifty or sixty more that came in and got stays. But as far as going to the table, I did that ninety-five times.
p. 284 “If Texas…would be Pickett’s thirty-third.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:02:26:The only thing I knew about Carlos [DeLuna when he arrived at the death house] was an article that Kathy [Fair] had written in the Houston Chronicle. I think it was probably November the 30th, or about a week before he came in. He came in on December the 6th. I remember that because it was the anniversary of the first execution. Charlie Brooks came in on December 6th and was executed on December 7th, 1982. And here, number thirty-three comes in on the same day. I read in that article, Kathy's article, some details about the case. I had questions before I ever met Carlos about Carlos's guilt or innocence.
See also Executions in the U.S. from 1976–1986, Death Penalty Information Center http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-us-1976-1986 (last visited Mar. 23, 2012) (listing Texas executions since it reinstated the death penalty and began executions anew in 1982, among which, Carlos DeLuna's was the thirty-third). Archived at: http://perma.cc/D3K4-TDAV.p. 284 “A bit of a historian…on December 7, 1982.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:50–21:44:53:Two and a half years . . . after I started to work there [at the Walls Unit] as my ministry . . . they scheduled an execution. Of course, there hadn't been any executions in Texas since 1964. So none of us knew what it was going to be like. None of us knew what we were going to do. None of us knew what was going to take place. But it was started on December the 7th of 1982, when we did our first execution by lethal injection. First one in the world . . . . As it developed after that, after the first one [execution by lethal injection] was done, with Charlie Brooks, it began. We did a couple, then we laid off for a while. Texas [later] became real active in doing executions.
Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:02:26:The only thing I knew about Carlos [DeLuna when he arrived at the death house] was an article that Kathy [Fair] had written in the Houston Chronicle. I think it was probably November the 30th, or about a week before he came in. He came in on December the 6th. I remember that because it was the anniversary of the first execution. Charlie Brooks came in on December 6th and was executed on December 7th, 1982. And here, number thirty-three comes in on the same day. I read in that article, Kathy's article, some details about the case. I had questions before I ever met Carlos about Carlos's guilt or innocence.
p. 284 “Pickett had stood beside Charles Brooks, Jr., the man executed that day.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:44:53–21:45:38, 21:42:50–21:44:53, 22:02:26; see Executions in the U.S. from 1976–1986, Death Penalty Information Center http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-us-1976-1986 (last visited Mar. 23, 2011) (Charles Brooks was the first person in the U.S. executed by lethal injection). Archived at: http://perma.cc/D3K4-TDAVp. 284 “The minister…Death House was located.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:26–21:43:39:Then I came to Huntsville [from south Texas] to work with another church. After I completed all I felt God had intended me to do there, I resigned. I gave them six months notice so they could find another preacher. I didn't have a job. Everybody told me I was crazy for resigning from that job because I had four kids getting ready to go to college. One was in high school, three were in college. And the director of the prison system, Mr. Estelle, who was a member of my church, asked me to come work at the prison for a year, just for a year, until my youngest daughter got out of high school. 'Cause he knew my family real well. So I agreed to work for a year, and I went to the prison and worked sixteen years. Never filled out my paperwork, but I've worked there for sixteen years at the Walls unit. I went there primarily to develop a program for twenty-two hundred inmates and minister to the hospital, which at the time was the only hospital in prison, and the mental ward, which was the only mental part of the penal system in Texas. That was my pastoral area.
p. 284 “The warden…a home on the prison grounds.”See supra note 40.p. 285 “Pickett was impatient…for a death row chaplain.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:50 ("I never went to Death Row. There's a difference that a lot of people don't understand. Death Row was 16 miles out in the country [at the Ellis Unit], the death house was in town. By law, in Texas, they had to be executed in Huntsville, in the town. And the death house was on my unit [the Walls unit].").p. 285 “He ministered to the soon-to-be dead.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:01:48–22:02:06 ("When the [execution] program was set up, Mr. Estelle [the warden] said, 'I want the living chaplains [chaplains for the living on Death Row] out at Ellis, where it [Death Row] was . . . They'd take care of them all during their term [in prison]. And I want to have one person, who knows what they're doing, to be the death chaplain. I was called the death chaplain. I didn't particularly like that term but—Carlton Stowers wrote a couple of articles called 'Death Angel.' It was in the Dallas newspapers and Houston newspapers. And I would go with that [name].").p. 285 “He had never in his life visited death row…”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:50 ("I never went to Death Row. There's a difference that a lot of people don't understand. Death Row was 16 miles out in the country [at the Ellis Unit], the death house was in town. By law, in Texas, they had to be executed in Huntsville, in the town. And the death house was on my unit [the Walls unit]."); see Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 7 ("Reverend Pickett was present at the executions of 95 men. He never visited with the prisoners on death row, but once they were at the place of execution [in the Walls Unit in Huntsville], they had his total attention.").p. 285 “…at the Ellis Unit sixteen miles outside of Huntsville.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:50–21:44:42 ("Death Row was 16 miles out in the country, the death house was in town. By law, in Texas, they had to be executed in Huntsville, in the town.").p. 285 “State law required…Wall Unit inside that city’s limits.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:01:48–22:02:06 ("When the [execution] program was set up, Mr. Estelle [the warden] said, 'I want the living chaplains [chaplains for the living on death row] out at Ellis, where it [Death Row] was . . . They'd take care of them all during their term [in prison]. And I want to have one person, who knows what they're doing, to be the death chaplain. I was called the death chaplain. I didn't particularly like that term but—Carlton Stowers wrote a couple of articles called 'Death Angel.' It was in the Dallas newspapers and Houston newspapers. And I would go with that [name]."); see Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:11:45–21:16:38:We all went to go see Carlos [on the day set for his execution]. Actually, I believe it's called the Walls. That's where they take you. The first time he was scheduled to be executed [in 1986], he was still in Huntsville [sic, the Ellis Unit] inside the Death Row, he was never taken to the Walls. And he was able to receive his stay, which was a very happy moment. Second time that he was scheduled to be executed, he was taken to the Walls. We never went to [Ellis], we actually were told to go to the Walls. And I believe that's known as where you go to these smaller cells—I think there's only two of them, or three—and that's when they're getting ready to execute you. That's your time. . . . [W]hen you go to the Walls, that's it. The chances of you getting out of there are very thin, knowing now what I know, it's very slim, getting out of there.
p. 285 “Pickett was…as he preferred to be called.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:01:48–22:02:06.p. 285 “His ministry…the day he was to die.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:50–21:44:42 ("I went to the prison and worked sixteen years. Never filled out my paperwork, but I've worked there for sixteen years at the Walls unit. I went there primarily to develop a program for twenty-two hundred inmates and minister to the hospital . . . .").p. 285 “’There was no book…could tell us what to expect.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:42:50–21:44:42, 21:44:53–21:45:38 ("Two and a half years . . . after I started to work there [at the Walls Unit] as my ministry, . . . they scheduled an execution. Of course, there hadn't been any executions in Texas since 1964. So none of us knew what it was going to be like. None of us knew what we were going to do. None of us knew what was going to take place. But it was started on December the 7th of 1982, when we did our first execution by lethal injection. First one in the world."; "We were the first in the United States to do any lethal injection executions. There was no book to go by, no manual to go by. Nobody had ever executed a person this way. So nobody, including the doctors, could tell us what to expect. It was just a fearful situation all the time, because we never knew.").p. 285 “For the fifteen years… ‘never knew’ what might happen.”See supra note 49.p. 285-6 “The warden wanted…lethal drugs into veins in both arms.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25:In those days we were executing at midnight. They'd bring them in early in the morning. My responsibility, according to the warden, was to be there in the death house, which is in the northeast corner of the unit, which is only about 50 feet from the house where I lived. My responsibility was to be there when he walked in. I was to be the face that he [the condemned prisoner] saw outside the guards. That was important. Because every inmate distrusts guards. They have to. They're taught that. They're abused by them. Not all guards are abusive, but some are. So it was my responsibility to be there. His charge to me was, and these are his words, "to seduce their emotions so they won't fight getting out of the cell or getting up on the table." And that was primarily what I was supposed to do. I could be a pastor to them, I could be a minister to them, I could work with them whatever their religious presence was. But he told every one of them, the first warden did, and all the other ones that followed him that I worked with, which was about six. They would tell them, "I suggest you talk to him because he's a good counselor. If you don't want to talk about religion, that's fine. But whatever you do, just talk to him." And all but one of those ninety-five talked to me. Of course there were fifty or sixty more that came in and got stays. But as far as going to the table, I did that ninety-five times.
See James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004) at 1 ("Whole goal of Rev P[ickett]'s work [was] that no one would fight the guards before the execution; none of them ever did fight on his watch.").p. 286 “That’s a big part…fifty feet from the Death House.”See Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25 ("In those days we were executing at midnight. They'd bring them in early in the morning. My responsibility, according to the warden, was to be there in the death house, which is in the northeast corner of the unit, which is only about 50 feet from the house where I lived.").p. 286 “My responsibility…in his slow, soothing cadence.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25.p. 286 “‘Because every inmate…‘abused by them’ sometimes, Pickett said.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25.p. 286 “‘[The warden’s] charge…‘‘cell or getting up on the table.’’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25.p. 286 “‘I could be…But whatever you do, just talk to him.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25; Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:58:38 ("[T]he warden gave me freedom to do whatever I felt like would keep them calm."); see Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:58:38–22:00:27:Fortunately, we never had a problem. Nobody ever fought coming out of the cell when I was there. Nobody ever fought getting up on the table. I understand last year they had at least three [in Texas who fought]. It's terrible, to watch somebody fight. We practiced this in 1982. One time the warden brought in a person and he just surprised us all by kicking him. People got hurt. As I wrote to the people in New Jersey and New York just this past week, it would be terrible to have somebody fight coming out of the cell. But the warden gave me freedom to do whatever I felt like would keep them calm. There were a lot of people who threatened to fight, or some who threatened to kill the chaplain, because they knew the system, and I had to go through that. But I never had one of them. And Carlos came in quiet, very, very scared.
p. 286 “‘And all but one…I did that ninety-five times.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38–21:47:25.p. 286 “Every bit of Pickett’s… ‘set aside just for that.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22:A lot of inmates who died have good people. They might have done something wrong, they might have been accused of something wrong, but their families were innocent. So one of my responsibilities was to get the families in. But before Carlos ever let his family in, he told me—I was there when he came in . . . . We had lots of time to talk. . . . And there were certain responsibilities I had to do. Every execution day was set aside just for that, it didn't have anything to do with my work in the unit. But there were reports to give to the warden, reports to give to the executioners, and there was a time when I would go visit with the family.
p. 286 “Most of the day…preparing him for his last moments.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22 ("He began to hang on to me. And I mean that not critically, but he didn't want me to leave. He wouldn't let me leave. And there were certain responsibilities I had to do. Every execution day was set aside just for that, it didn't have anything to do with my work in the unit. But there were reports to give to the warden, reports to give to the executioners, and there was a time when I would go visit with the family.").p. 286 “There also…confessions to hear, a lot of them.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22; see Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:26:53–22:27:54 ("His family visited in the daytime, and then I went over to the hospitality house to visit them, and they decided they . . . didn't want to witness [the execution]."). On the family's decision whether to view the execution, see infra note 235 and accompanying text. On the confessions Pickett heard, see infra notes 97, 105, 170–77 and accompanying text.p. 286-7 “He realized…journey into night and the execution that awaited.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain 171–72 (2002):In the Death House there was one small window. When it was open, it allowed in the fresh air. The rays of sun streaming through it, I believed, helped brighten the dungeonlike atmosphere. Once an inmate settling in for his daylong wait, his attention would inevitably be drawn to the window . . ., his mood growing darker. I finally realized why. The small peephold to the outside world offered no comfort, only a grim reminder that time was slipping away. As shadows lengthened and the daylight gradually faded to dusk, then dark, I would sense an increasing apprehension that I could only attribute to thoughts of the events that lay ahead. . . . But finally it occurred to me that the window, through which the inmate could mark the slow approach of the last night of his life, created a level of anxiety that no watch or clock could ever cause. That it took me so long to determine the cause angered me. My job—"seduce the prisoner's emotions, calm him, help him in whatever way you can"—had been undermined by my own inability to recognize an elementary problem. Resolving it was easy. I sought and was granted permission to have the panes of the window painted black . . . .
p. 287 “‘I sought’…Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 171–72.p. 287 “‘That it took…inability to recognize an elementary problem.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 171–72.p. 287 “A description… might set [the inmate] off.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 172–73:At times, I had seen fear cause a cold sweat to appear on the faces of correctional officers who were clearly unsettled by their duty. Adopting a whistling-through-the-graveyard attitude, they would mask their own apprehension with constant joking. In a misguided attempt to lighten the mood, they would only anger the prisoner. On the other hand, if they appeared in a somber mood, it too rubbed off quickly. It was critical that a proper balance be struck, that everyone avoid any attitude or mannerism that might set an inmate off. It was those prisoners who were mentally retarded who were the most difficult to read. Despite public assurances from the governor's office [of Texas, during the administrations of Governor George W. Bush and Rick Perry] and the White House that no one lacking the capacity to fully understand what was taking place was ever put to death, I beg to disagree, having spent time with many incompetent prisoners up to the moment of their executions.
p. 287 “‘It was those…were the most difficult to read.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 173.p. 287 “The first is…’comics he couldn’t read.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 173.p. 287 “Penry was never executed, however.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 174 ("Yet, on the night I spent with Penry, trying in vain to make him understand what would happen to him once we entered the death chamber, the Supreme Court intervened, providing him with a stay of execution.").p. 287 “The Supreme Court…overturned his death sentence.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 175; see supra Chapter 15, notes 254–259 and accompanying text.p. 287 “It was…to consider ‘mitigating’ evidence.”See supra Chapter 15, notes 256–259 and accompanying text.p. 287 “Kristen Weaver spent…grant him a last-minute reprieve.”See infra notes 128–145 and accompanying text.p. 287 “Pickett wrote…occasionally laugh[ing] quietly to himself.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 174, 175 ("[O]n the night I spent with Penry, trying in vain to make him understand what would happen to him once we entered the death chamber, the Supreme Court intervened, providing him with a stay of execution"; "On that . . . night, before the Supreme Court ruling saved him [Penry], the time for entering the death chamber was drawing near when I noticed that Penry, having finished his last meal, was idly thumbing through a comic book. As he studied the colorful pages, lost in a world of make-believe, he would occasionally laugh quietly to himself. Those innocent, childlike sounds chilled me.").p. 287 “Penry’s ‘innocent, childlike sounds chilled me,’ Pickett recalled.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 175.p. 287 “‘Carlos De Luna’…Pickett chronicles in chapter 13.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 175.p. 287-8 “That he’d managed…‘on our education system,’ the minister wrote.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 175–76. In fact, Carlos DeLuna dropped out in the eighth grade. See also James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004), at 1 ("I got very involved in DeLuna case. Calls [Pickett] 'Daddy'—CDL [Carlos DeLuna] did this. . . . Re: DeLuna: To me, he was a child; he started it; he called me daddy."); Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 2, 8 ("He said Carlos was so young, not mature at all, and had to live in fear. On the day Carlos was executed, he became younger and younger. He began to call Reverend Pickett 'Daddy,' and begged the Reverend not to leave him. Carlos also wanted Reverend Pickett to hold his hand at the end . . . . The Reverend stayed with Carlos, except when he had to go out and talk with the visitors"; "Carlos DeLuna was a good person. He was like a baby. He was not at all like a typical prisoner condemned to death. He never really understood what was happening to him, or why he was there.") (emphasis in original).p. 288 “‘As we talked…concept of their own death.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 176.p. 288 “Chapter 13 categorizes…about their impending death.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 176. ("While the inmate of average or above-average intelligence was always focused, those with low I.Q.s seemed disoriented . . . . When the time came to describe the procedures that would occur inside the death chamber, most have an endless series of questions. But all DeLuna was concerned with was what pain he might feel when the needles were inserted into his arm.").p. 288 “Inmates of average…lower intelligence ‘seemed disoriented.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 176.p. 288 “Some couldn’t…That was Johnny Paul Penry.”See supra notes 67–72 and accompanying text.p. 288 “’[H]e demonstrated…understanding of why he was there.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 176 ("Upon his arrival at the Death House, he [Carlos DeLuna] demonstrated the characteristics that, since the Penry case, I'd so often prayed never to see again. Like several I had encountered before him, he had no real understanding of why he was there."); Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 2, 8 ("He said Carlos was so young, not mature at all, and had to live in fear. On the day Carlos was executed, he became younger and younger. He began to call Reverend Pickett "Daddy," and begged the Reverend not to leave him. Carlos also wanted Reverend Picket to hold his hand at the end . . . . The Reverend stayed with Carlos, except when he had to go out and talk with the visitors"; "Carlos DeLuna was a good person. He was like a baby. He was not at all like a typical prisoner condemned to death. He never really understood what was happening to him, or why he was there.") (emphasis in original); see also Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:17:05–22:19:01 ("Ted Koppel . . . came to watch the execution of Mario Marquez, who was mentally retarded, who was very much, in my mind, like Carlos. Very much like him.").p. 288 “‘[A]ll DeLuna…were inserted into his arms.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 176; see Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 4 ("Reverend Pickett said that Carlos was concerned about whether the execution by injection of drugs would hurt. Reverend Pickett told him he would be asleep in 7 to 12 seconds.").p. 288 “Pickett replayed his conversation…one…two…three…”See supra note 80.p. 288 “Both times…trip to the Death House.”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 178 ("In the fifteen years I served as the Death House chaplain, I sought psychological help only twice. Both occasions came in the wake of Carlos DeLuna's death."); see James S. Liebman, Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004) at 1, 3 ("As tough as I had to be, the DeLuna case sent me to counseling."; "This one tore me to pieces. [Had to go] . . . to Dallas for therapy."); Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 2 ("[Pickett] was profoundly affected by Carlos's execution [and] had to have counseling after Carlos was executed.").p. 288 “‘I’ll never forget…private investigators in 2004.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22 ("I'll never forget Carlos. Carlos . . . it was a long day. Even though he had a tremendous amount of visitors. And they were good people. A lot of inmates who died have good people.").p. 288 “Carlos arrived…morning of December 6.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38 ("In those days we were executing at midnight. They'd bring them in early in the morning.").p. 289 “As Pickett did…most of the time, not ‘troublemakers.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:57:00–22:00:54:There are those who are inmates, who are sent there, who either adjust to the system or adjust to the fact that they are in prison, for right or for wrong, for innocent or for evil, whatever. And they will go along with the rules, and they will be honest and they will be supportive and they will not be troublemakers. A convict, by our definition, is one who is a troublemaker, who doesn't like the rules, who has committed multiple felony crimes, who doesn't care how he acts on the unit, who doesn't care how many times he goes to lock-up . . . . We had people who were sent in to be executed who were convicts and we had some who were inmates. . . . And Carlos came in quiet, very, very scared. Because he was so young. He was basically a child. That's why I didn't mind him calling me "daddy," because he was just a child. He had a baby face. He had baby features, to me. And when I talked to him, and in the time I spent with him, I could tell by the way he treated his family, he was crying out for somebody to say, "I love you and I care, and I want you to listen to me."
Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:58:38–22:00:27 ("But a convict is a person that you have a lot of trouble with. We had people who were sent in to be executed who were convicts and we had some who were inmates. And it was easy to determine within the first couple of hours after they got there whether they were going to be inmates or convicts.").p. 289 “A ‘convict’…or how often he was punished.”Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:57:00–22:00:54.p. 289 “‘We had people’… Carlos was an inmate.”Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:57:00–22:00:54; James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004) at 3 ("CDL [Carlos DeLuna] was an inmate (anyone who was there for any reason but behaved themselves); but he was not a convict (does everything to break rules, get into fights, blackmail anyone . . . ). 'People who are innocent are all inmates.'").p. 289 “Carlos was cooperative throughout the day, Pickett recalled.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22:I'll never forget Carlos. Carlos . . . it was a long day. Even though he had a tremendous amount of visitors. And they were good people. A lot of inmates who died have good people. They might have done something wrong, they might have been accused of something wrong, but their families were innocent. So one of my responsibilities was to get the families in. But before Carlos ever let his family in, he told me—I was there when he came in . . . . We had lots of time to talk. And I asked Carlos, since I was responsible for bringing in his visitors, who he wanted to see and how long he wanted to see them. And I explained to him the visitation times. And he was very, very cooperative. But he was very, very—I don't want to use the word immature or childish, but he was very simple. He began to hang on to me. And I mean that not critically, but he didn't want me to leave. He wouldn't let me leave. And there were certain responsibilities I had to do. Every execution day was set aside just for that, it didn't have anything to do with my work in the unit. But there were reports to give to the warden, reports to give to the executioners, and there was a time when I would go visit with the family.
p. 289 “He ‘came in’…‘He was basically a child.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:57:00–22:00:54; see James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004) at 1 ("I got very involved in DeLuna case. Calls [Pickett] 'Daddy'—CDL [Carlos DeLuna] did this. . . . Re: DeLuna: To me, he was a child; he started it; he called me daddy."); Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 2, 8 ("He said Carlos was so young, not mature at all, and had to live in fear. On the day Carlos was executed, he became younger and younger. He began to call Reverend Pickett 'Daddy,' and begged the Reverend not to leave him. Carlos also wanted Reverend Pickett to hold his hand at the end . . . . The Reverend stayed with Carlos, except when he had to go out and talk with the visitors"; "Carlos DeLuna was a good person. He was like a baby. He was not at all like a typical prisoner condemned to death. He never really understood what was happening to him, or why he was there.") (emphasis in original).p. 289 “All day long…‘by age but he was a boy.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:13:52–22:17:05:All day long I was with a boy. He was a man by age but he was a boy. And he relied so much on me, and I don't mean that egotistically. But he asked me all types of questions. Every time the door would open, "What is that? What's going on?" Why the phone would ring, and all these type of things. And I would be honest with him. I told him I would do that. And I said, "I'm going to do anything you want, anything you want. But I will be truthful to you."
p. 289 “He was ‘simple’…‘He wouldn’t let me leave.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22:I'll never forget Carlos. Carlos . . . it was a long day. Even though he had a tremendous amount of visitors. And they were good people. A lot of inmates who died have good people. They might have done something wrong, they might have been accused of something wrong, but their families were innocent. So one of my responsibilities was to get the families in. But before Carlos ever let his family in, he told me—I was there when he came in . . . . We had lots of time to talk. And I asked Carlos, since I was responsible for bringing in his visitors, who he wanted to see and how long he wanted to see them. And I explained to him the visitation times. And he was very, very cooperative. But he was very, very—I don't want to use the word immature or childish, but he was very simple. He began to hang on to me. And I mean that not critically, but he didn't want me to leave. He wouldn't let me leave. And there were certain responsibilities I had to do. Every execution day was set aside just for that, it didn't have anything to do with my work in the unit. But there were reports to give to the warden, reports to give to the executioners, and there was a time when I would go visit with the family.
p. 289 “The only thing…INCREASES TERROR OF CONDEMNED KILLER.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:02:26–22:03:50 ("The only thing I knew about Carlos was an article that Kathy [Fair] had written in the Houston Chronicle. I think it was probably November the 30th, or about a week before he came in. He came in on December the 6th. I remember that because it was the anniversary of the first execution."); see Kathy Fair, Each Tick of Clock Increases Terror of Condemned Killer, Houst. Chron., Nov. 30, 1989, at 34A (discussed supra Chapter 15, notes 287–288 and accompanying text).p. 289 “‘Shortly afterward…parked only a few blocks away.’”Rev. Carroll Pickett with Carlton Stowers, Within These Walls: Memoirs of a Death House Chaplain (2002) at 175.p. 289 “Yet DeLuna…man had committed the crime.”Kathy Fair, Each Tick of Clock Increases Terror of Condemned Killer, Houst. Chron., Nov. 30, 1989, at 34A ("DeLuna testified at his trial that he ran from the service station after seeing another of his friends struggling with the victim . . . .").p. 289 “Pickett told the investigators… ‘scene as possible,’ Pickett explained.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:45:38, 22:03:50–22:10:44 ("The average convict will not stop a block away and hide underneath a truck. If they're going to run, you keep running and running and running. You get as far away from the scene as possible. . . . But Carlos wanted to talk about it, and we discussed those two issues: Why did you let her talk on the phone? And why did you stay on the truck? And he said, 'I didn't do it.' That's as clear as a bell to me. . . . And I believed him.")p. 289 “Picket spoke to Carlos about the Chronicle article…”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:03:50–22:05:50 ("I had those two things on my mind [when he talked to Carlos DeLuna] and I had that article [by Kathy Fair in the Houston Chronicle]. I had that article in my file. He brought that article up three times during the day. We discussed that article.").p. 289 “It was his way…get off of his chest.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:03:50–22:07:39:It was our program, our philosophy, that I will ask questions and guide him [the inmate] and talk to him. Whatever he wanted to confess to or talk about, that was fine. We'll talk about anything in the world. But I had those two things on my mind [when he talked to Carlos DeLuna] and I had that article [by Kathy Fair in the Houston Chronicle]. I had that article in my file. He brought that article up three times during the day. We discussed that article. The most vivid and most remembering part about executions begins after ten o'clock at night. Because at ten o'clock at night, I would move the guards out of the way, and I would explain to them [the condemned inmates] exactly, in detail, what was going to take place. From what was going to happen, what telephone they would hear. You hear two telephone rings. And it's a traumatic process. I would explain to them how many straps would be put down. How, at 12 o'clock, I would wait till I got a call from the governor or a call from the attorney general. I would say, "It's time. Now, I want you to follow me in there. And don't fight. Because I'll have some guys with me. You'll be two feet behind me and just follow me." So I explained all this to Carlos. He told me, he said, "I'm not"— And I asked him, did he want to tell [me] the truth. He said, "Sure." I did them all that way. . . . "Go ahead, I want to know the whole story." . . . And many of the convicts, between 10:15 and midnight, confessed to a lot of things for which they were not convicted. I began in the beginning saying some of them are just bragging. I began to check them out with friends of mine, without telling them. They were true. There was a lot of confession. At ten o'clock to midnight is a very traumatic situation. I went to my doctor, and he told me, "One of these days you're going to pay for all this, because you're taking in a lot of stuff you can't get out." And he was a cardiologist in Victoria. And I may be, right now, in that position at this very minute [given heart trouble Pickett was suffering at the time of the interview].
p. 289 “Bringing condemned…before DeLuna would be ready for that.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:03:50–22:07:39.p. 290 “In the morning…wanted to spend with each.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22 ("So one of my responsibilities was to get the families in. . . . Every execution day was set aside just for that, it didn't have anything to do with my work in the unit. But there were reports to give to the warden, reports to give to the executioners, and there was a time when I would go visit with the family."); Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:26:53–22:28:55:His [Carlos DeLuna's] family visited in the daytime, and then I went over to the hospitality house to visit them, and they decided they . . . didn't want to witness [the execution]. And he wanted to talk to me about it, and to tell them goodbye, and the family wanted to tell him goodbye. . . . I got permission for him to call. . . . So he made that call to his family, and called to the one sister who couldn't come, and called . . . [TV reporter Karen Boudrie] in—I think it's Cincinnati, Ohio, somewhere up there, I may have to look it up.
p. 290 “Early in this…good about his stepfather.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:49:22–21:50:40:Then he told me about his—he never met his daddy. And I'm using the term "daddy" because that's what he used. He never met his daddy. . . . He was one of many children. During the day, before 12 o'clock—he didn't eat lunch—but before the day he wanted to know if he could call me "daddy," if it would hurt my feelings. Because he had never had anybody stick by him who was in a fatherly position. He didn't know his real father, he was abused by his step-father. I always made it my place to do what I could to make them comfortable. And I felt like if he called me "daddy," that would be fine. It sort of shook me up real bad. I've got four children and three step-children and fourteen grandchildren, and I know what "daddy" means. "Daddy" is a little bit beyond just "father." But he was willing to discuss anything after he got permission to call me "daddy."
See also Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:13:52–22:15:40 ("All day long I was with a boy. He was a man by age but he was a boy. And he relied so much on me, and I don't mean that egotistically. But he asked me all types of questions. Every time the door would open, 'What is that? What's going on?' Why the phone would ring, and all these type of things. And I would be honest with him. I told him I would do that. And I said, 'I'm going to do anything you want, anything you want. But I will be truthful to you.'").p. 290 “Pickett knew… ‘who was in a fatherly position.’”See supra note 100; see also James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004) at 1 ("I got very involved in DeLuna case. Calls [Pickett] 'Daddy'—CDL [Carlos DeLuna] did this. . . . Re: DeLuna: To me, he was a child; he started it; he called me daddy."); Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 2, 8 ("He said Carlos was so young, not mature at all, and had to live in fear. On the day Carlos was executed, he became younger and younger. He began to call Reverend Pickett 'Daddy,' and begged the Reverend not to leave him. Carlos also wanted Reverend Pickett to hold his hand at the end . . . . The Reverend stayed with Carlos, except when he had to go out and talk with the visitors"; "Carlos DeLuna was a good person. He was like a baby. He was not at all like a typical prisoner condemned to death. He never really understood what was happening to him, or why he was there.") (emphasis in original).p. 290 “Pickett told Carlos that would be fine…”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:49:22–21:50:40, 22:13:52–22:15:40 (quoted supra note 100).p. 290 “but ‘it sort of shook me,’”See supra notes 100–101.p. 290 “‘I’ve got four…know what daddy means.’”See supra notes 100–101.p. 290 “After that…’discuss anything’ with him.”See supra notes 100–101.p. 290 “Carlos had a lot of family member to attend to, Pickett recalled.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22:I'll never forget Carlos. Carlos . . . it was a long day. Even though he had a tremendous amount of visitors. And they were good people. A lot of inmates who died have good people. They might have done something wrong, they might have been accused of something wrong, but their families were innocent. So one of my responsibilities was to get the families in. But before Carlos ever let his family in, he told me—I was there when he came in . . . . We had lots of time to talk. And I asked Carlos, since I was responsible for bringing in his visitors, who he wanted to see and how long he wanted to see them. And I explained to him the visitation times. And he was very, very cooperative. But he was very, very—I don't want to use the word immature or childish, but he was very simple. He began to hang on to me. And I mean that not critically, but he didn't want me to leave. He wouldn't let me leave. And there were certain responsibilities I had to do. Every execution day was set aside just for that, it didn't have anything to do with my work in the unit. But there were reports to give to the warden, reports to give to the executioners, and there was a time when I would go visit with the family.
p. 290 “Several were at the prison…and Danny, and their spouses.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:26:53–22:27:34 ("We'd made calls that night. His family visited in the daytime, and then I went over to the hospitality house to visit them, and they decided they . . . didn't want to witness [the execution]. And he wanted to talk to me about it, and to tell them goodbye, and the family wanted to tell him goodbye.") see James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, (July 11, 2004) at 1 ("[Carlos's family] [d]idn't see execution; time of visit with CDL [Carlos DeLuna] is indicated: Rosemary & Brad, 10–12[;] Daniel Conejo & Maria Conejo 12–2 [;] Maria Ar[re]dando & Vicky Gutierrez 2–3[;] Rosemary & Brad [again.] Called [i.e., telephoned, members of] his family 8:37–8:50 at hospitality house. Toni Pena—wanted to make a call to her. He did call her 9:04–9:26 p. m. Karen Boutard [sic—Boudrie] in Cincinnati, OH. Called her last.").p. 290 “Later Carlos…prison unit south of Houston.”See James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 11, 2004) at 1; infra notes 160–167 and accompanying text.p. 290 “In the middle…television station in Georgia…”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:27:34–22:28:55 ("So he made that call to his family, and called to the one sister who couldn't come, and called . . . [TV reporter Karen Boudrie] in—I think it's Cincinnati, Ohio, somewhere up there, I may have to look it up. And then after that it was all just me and him.");James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 11, 2004) at 1.p. 290 “‘[T]hey were good people…’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22.p. 290 “…Pickett remembered.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22; see Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain, in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:26:53–22:27:34 ("We'd made calls that night. His family visited in the daytime, and then I went over to the hospitality house to visit them, and they decided they . . . didn't want to witness [the execution]. And he wanted to talk to me about it, and to tell them goodbye, and the family wanted to tell him goodbye.").p. 290 “‘A lot of inmates…with dignity and respect.’”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:47:35–21:49:22.p. 290 “Family visits…called the ‘hospitality house’.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:26:53–22:27:34 ("His family visited in the daytime, and then I went over to the hospitality house to visit them, and they decided they . . . didn't want to witness [the execution]. And he wanted to talk to me about it, and to tell them goodbye, and the family wanted to tell him goodbye. And we worked out a deal over at the hospitality house. Bob Norris was super. That house wasn't built for that purpose but we turned it into that."); James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 11, 2004) at 1 ("[Carlos's family] [d]idn't see execution; time of visit with CDL [Carlos DeLuna] is indicated: Rosemary & Brad, 10–12[;] Daniel Conejo & Maria Conejo12–2 [;] Maria Arendando & Vickey Gutierrez 2–3[;] Rosemary & Brad [again.] Called [i.e., telephoned, members of] his family 8:37–8:50 at hospitality house.").p. 290 “Carlos wanted to see his people separately, not all at once.”See supra note 113.p. 290 “According to Pickett’s notes…”See Susan Montez's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 17, 2004) at 1 ("Having already spoken with Peso Chavez, Reverend Pickett was prepared to talk to me about Carlos DeLuna. He opened a file and told me he saves everything. The file contained handwritten notes regarding Carlos DeLuna's last hours. The notes discussed Carlos's chosen visitors, his phone calls, his choice of spiritual advisor, his will, and the execution itself.").p. 290 “…Carlos saw his sister…Brad a second time after that.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain in Huntsville, Texas (Feb. 26, 2005) at 22:26:53–22:27:34 ("His family visited in the daytime, and then I went over to the hospitality house to visit them, and they decided they . . . didn't want to witness [the execution]. And he wanted to talk to me about it, and to tell them goodbye, and the family wanted to tell him goodbye. And we worked out a deal over at the hospitality house. Bob Norris was super. That house wasn't built for that purpose but we turned it into that."); James S. Liebman's Notes on Interview with Carroll Pickett, Texas Death House Chaplain (July 11, 2004) at 1 ("[Carlos's family] [d]idn't see execution; time of visit with CDL [Carlos DeLuna] is indicated: Rosemary & Brad, 10–12[;] Daniel Conejo & Maria Conejo12–2 [;] Maria Arendando & Vickey Gutierrez 2–3[;] Rosemary & Brad [again.] Called [i.e., telephoned, members of] his family 8:37–8:50 at hospitality house.").p. 290 “The first time…reprieve from Judge Head.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:11:45–21:16:38:We all went to go see Carlos [on the day set for his execution]. Actually, I believe it's called the Walls. That's where they take you. The first time he was scheduled to be executed [in 1986], he was still in Huntsville [sic—the Ellis Unit outside Huntsville], inside the Death Row, he was never taken to the Walls. And he was able to receive his stay, which was a very happy moment. Second time that he was scheduled to be executed, he was taken to the Walls. We never went to [the Ellis Unit], we actually were told to go to the Walls. And I believe that's known as where you go to these smaller cells—I think there's only two of them, or three—and that's when they're getting ready to execute you. That's your time. . . . [W]hen you go to the Walls, that's it. The chances of you getting out of there are very thin, knowing now what I know, it's very slim, getting out of there. That time, we didn't think that Carlos would be executed. We thought for sure he would get out of this, because as far as our faith. I'm saying that not having the faith and not trusting God, because I'm not angry with God anymore. But going through it again, just thinking about it, it was very painful seeing him. He was very thin than his normal weight, very, very thin. I would think Carlos, it's as thin as I've ever seen him. I've seen him maybe 125 pounds, very thin. He was very quiet, very peaceful, more peaceful than the ones [there] that were not in that situation. He was nervous, as I could see in his face, he was nervous. And I thought, for sure, for sure, he was going to get out of it. Deep in my heart, I believed God's going to get him out of this. And I told him that.
p. 290 “As Rose… as a ‘happy moment’.”Transcribed Videotape Interview with Rose Rhoton, Sister of Carlos DeLuna, in Houston, Tex. (Feb. 26, 2005) at 21:11:45–21:16:38.